Talk:Wernher von Braun

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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Wernher von Braun was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

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January 16, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
June 12, 2008	Good article reassessment	Delisted

Current status: Delisted good article

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Confusing wording in section

In the section "Membership in the Allgemeine SS", there are a few strangely worded sentences.

but in 2002 a former SS officer at Peenemünde told the BBC that von Braun had regularly worn the SS uniform to official meetings. He began as an Untersturmführer (Second lieutenant) and was promoted three times by Himmler, the last time in June 1943 to SS-Sturmbannführer (Major). Von Braun later claimed that these were simply technical promotions received each year regularly by mail.

I interpret these sentences as saying that a former SS officer told the BBC something in 2002, to which Von Braun responded afterwards. However, this is impossible, considering that he died in 1977.

Dates

"and in 1975, he received the National Medal of Science" is later refuted in the death section where it says it was 1977. 68.207.184.244 (talk) 16:19, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious Source

In the early life section, there's a few sentences that talk about a young Wernher von Braun nearly being killed in a homemade rocket car accident. However, the citation leads to an article from the Smithsonian Magazine which has no citations for any of the claims it makes. The article also has a number of factual errors, particularly towards the start of the article when it tries to make the tenuous connection between Elon Musk and Fritz von Opel. During this attempted comparison, it says that both men "start[ed their] own privately funded automobile [...] business[es]." While this may or may not be true for von Opel, it is verifiably false for Musk, as he bought Tesla from its founders Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning. It also states that Fritz von Opel inherited his fortune while Elon Musk made his own fortune himself. This is not remotely the case, as Musk admitted himself in a 2014 interview that his father had "a private plane" and "a share in an emerald mine in Zambia." It also gets the date of the publishing of Max Valier's Der Vorstoss in den Weltraum wrong, claiming that it came out in 1925. However, as according to a paper (4th page of pdf, second paragraph) by a curator at the Smithsonian who actually bothered to cite his sources, it was originally published in 1924. It received a reprint in 1925, which may be where some of the confusion comes from, but even the smallest amount of due diligence in fact checking would have given the correct date.

Additionally, beyond the shoddy work of the Smithsonian article, the sentences in this Wikipedia page which cite it seem to paradoxically contain more content than what was written in the citation. Von Braun is mentioned in a single sentence in the article, that being: "Even 16-year old Wernher von Braun was bitten by the bug, constructing his own homemade rocket car and nearly killing himself in the process." However, in this Wikipedia page, von Braun is said to have caused a disruption in a crowded street, created the rocket car with fireworks and a toy wagon, and been taken into custody by the police until his father retrieved him. The assumption that the rocket car "detonated" is also flawed, because the article doesn't even say that he nearly killed himself after trying to fire the rockets. It says that he nearly killed himself in the "process" of "constructing his own homemade rocket car," which could mean a number of things. Maybe he accidentally inhaled some fumes he shouldn't have, or almost dropped something heavy on himself. The vagueness of the cited article combined with the strange specificity of the sentences in von Braun's Wikipedia page give me some pause.

Most damning of all is the fact that the previously mentioned paper does not mention this event happening at all. One would assume a paper on the "rocket rumble" would make a mention of such a standout example to help highlight the effects of the fad. However, even at the most opportune time the paper could talk about this happening (page 8, "[...] a number of future engineers at Peenemünde, notably Wernher von Braun, had their interest in rocketry sparked or increased by the publicity [of the Opel RAK tests]."), it doesn't make even a passing reference to the event.

With that said, I believe the sentences on the rocket car accident should either be edited, removed, or a better source for them–if any exist–should be used instead of the current one. Fungustober (talk) 20:10, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done I also replaced the voluminous Fritz von Opel, Max Valier and Opel-RAK details with links to the relevant articles. Ilenart626 (talk) 16:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Citizenship

I notice under the citizenship area it only lists USA citizenship, is there no place to find the citizenship for before USA naturalization? NoneStar (talk) 22:26, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you want. The line above says "Nationality German" (whatever that means), there are long sections of the article, Early life and Career in Germany, which discuss his time in Germany. He was clearly in Germany just prior to arriving in the US. The line "On 15 April 1955, von Braun became a naturalized citizen of the United States" is sourced. I don't think there is any reason to imagine he had any other citizenship. Johnjbarton (talk) 01:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removing "List of Nazis"

In this edit @Death Editor 2 added a See Also List of Nazis, implying that von Braun is on that list. He is not.

The page List of Nazis says the criteria is "This is a list of notable figures who were active within the party". This page on Wernher von Braun says: "Overall FBI conclusions point to Von Braun's involvement in the Nazi Party to be purely for the advancement of his academic career, or out of fear of imprisonment or execution." This page gives no evidence that von Braun was "active within the party". Johnjbarton (talk) 15:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wernher Von Braun was a member of both the Nazi Party and the SS. He oversaw the deaths of tens of thousands of inmates building his beloved rockets. His reasoning for being apart of the nazi party be damned, the most literal definition of a nazi is someone who was apart of the Nazi Party. Death Editor 2 (talk) 16:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Death Editor 2 As far as I can tell you are making these assertions based on your own opinions:

"He oversaw the deaths of tens of thousands of inmates building his beloved rockets."
- No source supports this claim.
"the most literal definition of a nazi is someone who was apart of the Nazi Party."
- The definition in List of Nazis does not agree. The purpose of the list is to guide readers who are learning about the Nazi movement so the entries have activity in the Nazi party.

I know that some people believe that every person in the military is responsible for every action of the organization. However that is not a mainstream concept. Rather each person should be held responsible for their own actions. Johnjbarton (talk) 17:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The seventh source used for the V-2 rocket article claims that 12,000 (forced) labourers were killed building the rockets, so you are wrong. Death Editor 2 (talk) 20:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your claim would put von Braun in Category:Nazi war criminals

Please give the source which shows that von Braun was "active within the party". That is the criteria for the List of Nazis. Johnjbarton (talk) 21:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I think von Braun may not match the List of Nazis criteria exactly, he was a member of the Nazi party and his work on the V-2 was part of an effort to spread the Nazi movement. He could have, for example, found another job rather than join the Nazi's in order to maintain his position. So I will remove my objection.

Resolved

Johnjbarton (talk) 00:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Wernher von Braun is not on the List of Nazis as it excludes SS personal, which have a separate list and by default are Nazis. Therefore you may want to use List of SS personnel#Sturmbannführer (major) instead, which already has an entry for Wernher von Braun. Ilenart626 (talk) 09:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Absurdities Surrounding von Braun

The article says that von Braun was made a professor by Hitler. The dictator did not have any higher education beyond primary school, did not even speak a foreign language, and promoted a leading scientist to professor.

I once saw a US documentary on the space program and the moon flight. Wernher von Braun´s name was not mentioned at all. Ontologix (talk) 04:16, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On 7 July 1943, Hitler awarded WvB the title of professor after a meeting in the Wolf's Lair. As a dictator, he did not care whether he had the right to do so. Peenemünde people used the title, as documented in many sources, among them in the movie Prüfstand VII, showing the place-keeping cards of Dornberger and WvB in [1] around 46:43. SchmiAlf (talk) 10:11, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Experiments with rocket aircraft"

WHO said, ""Are you with us and will you test the rocket in the air? "

Unqualified to edit this but could somebody correct the ambiguity? Here is the conversation:

QUOTE:

......After he familiarized Warsitz with a test-stand run, showing him the corresponding apparatus in the aircraft, he asked: "Are you with us and will you test the rocket in the air? Then, Warsitz, you will be a famous man. And later we will fly to the Moon – with you at the helm!" 76.102.241.243 (talk) 10:00, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source is cited in the article. Johnjbarton (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He renounced the Nazi party.

There's a letter in which he renounces the Nazi party. Calling him a Nazi isn't really accurate. Her was never a Nazi by free will or on American soil. Please correct. 76.198.155.98 (talk) 02:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The section on his Nazi party affiliation is well sourced. If you have alternative sources that discredit or alter the content, please provide them. See WP:Verify. Johnjbarton (talk) 14:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source quotes help verify edits.

@Wizardman I just want to point out that these quotes bound to references are valuable to editors even if they seem to not to be needed by readers. When edits are made which change the meaning we often need to verify the change against a source. I often add a short quote to avoid having to go through the verification multiple times and to help other editors. I agree that the long quote was excessive but the source quote on the cause of death should remain in my opinion. Johnjbarton (talk) 02:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]